Path: controlnews3.google.com!news1.google.com!news.glorb.com! border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca! pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.85.88.130 From: Brian <br...@stanley-park.com> Subject: I am so spoiled... Newsgroups: microsoft.public.msn.discussion Reply-To: br...@stanley-park.com Lines: 67 User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: <HcRlc.347847$Pk3.161368@pd7tw1no> Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 18:23:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: ab...@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1083695015 24.71.223.147 (Tue, 04 May 2004 12:23:35 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 12:23:35 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Xref: controlnews3.google.com microsoft.public.msn.discussion:135 Just a quick note... A friend/client just brought in his Dell Inspiron 8600 laptop - fresh XP Pro with SP1+ and MS security CD upgrade. I plug it into an empty 10/100 socket on my LAN switch - it acknowledges the connection but doesn't communicate to the 'Net. I check to see what it has done and XP has failed to pick up a lease from the LAN DHCP server. I plug it straight into the cable modem switch hoping it will pick up a lease from Shaw Cable - our local broadband provider - no joy. I try to figure out what is happening when I note XP is trying to create a little wireless LAN bridging from the cable connection to the big bad wireless world - somebody is already trying to connect to the Dell - fortunately there is no connection to the 'Net! XP has managed to get a lease from Shaw but doesn't have a gateway or DNS service so is useless. I am running out of 'friend' time so start shutting XP down and disconnect it from the cable modem 5 port switch. The client complains that he can't connect to Microsoft upgrade and I explain QUICKLY that XP has guessed wrong the kind of connection he wanted and I don't have time to play with it (I really don't). I then show him how Linux connects to my wired 10/100 LAN: dhcpcd <enter> I then him how I connect directly to Shaw Cable through the switch; dhcpcd -k <enter> (kills the existing connection) dhcpcd <enter> (new lease in seconds) I demonstrate using an IBM X40 - it takes less than a second to get a lease on my LAN and less than 20 seconds to get a lease from Shaw Cable. I then demonstrate picking up a wireless lease from my b/g access point - takes about 30 seconds. I hand the Dell back directing him to a local Windows shop where I am sure they will get him online - for $60 a hour. Had he already been infected while he was trying to connect to the 'Net at home? I have no idea. Do I care? No! I had offered to install Slackware Current on his DELL but he decided on the more expensive XP Pro and 2003 Office - he is on his own and not very happy right now. I provide a service to my IT clients but the service is based on compliance with my recommendations - I am not a whore like the Microsoft houses who have recently *DISCOVERED* Linux. I am truly spoiled by Linux's power and ease of use - no viruses, no crippled Media player (9 can't even play ordinary AVIs out of the box), no Digital Rights Management (now to be upgraded to jAnus), no mangled networking and no sole dependence on a convicted predatory monopolist who is above the law. Best regards, Brian Linux Mystic open sorcerer
From: "Hanson" <h1...@localdrive.net> References: <HcRlc.347847$Pk3.161368@pd7tw1no> Subject: Re: I am so spoiled... Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 16:39:18 -0400 Lines: 111 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: <Oc6jmfhMEHA.1556@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl> Newsgroups: microsoft.public.msn.discussion NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust68.tnt2.sylva.nc.da.uu.net 67.240.192.68 Path: controlnews3.google.com!news1.google.com!news.glorb.com! cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!204.71.34.3! newsfeed.cwix.com!TK2MSFTNGP08.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl Xref: controlnews3.google.com microsoft.public.msn.discussion:142 Spoiled has more than one meaning--most of us who come here are familiar wi= th your "sour grapes" attitude toward all that it Microsoft... Ditto what Brian Kvalheim said--I've had no problems with Windows XP... No= ne of my clients who keep up with security updates have had virus/worm prob= lems. I removed the Sasser worm for a client today--she neglected to insta= ll last months patch--but with the McAfee Stinger tool, it was routine. Li= nux is also vulnerable to infections if not kept up to date--it just doesn'= t get the level of interest from virus coders as the much more prolific Win= dows... =20 After reading your Linux love letters for a while, I usually ask about Linu= x experiences from. A few IT professionals I know run a Linux machine jus= t to keep up, but none use Linux as a primary system. Most of my friends = who've tried Linux abandoned the attempt or have had to hire an expert (lik= e you claim to be) to get a successful installation. Most of them have gon= e back to Windows XP after reaffirming that "there's no such thing as a fre= e lunch"... You make a good living by pushing Linux, and there's no doubt you're very c= onvinced it's a good OS. But you also push a lot of biased/slanted/twisted= BS about Microsoft products. At least you're predictable.... H Smith =20 "Brian" <br...@stanley-park.com> wrote in message news:HcRlc.347847$Pk3.161= 368@pd7tw1no... Just a quick note... A friend/client just brought in his Dell Inspiron 8600 laptop - fresh XP Pr= o with SP1+ and MS security CD upgrade. I plug it into an empty 10/100 socket on my LAN switch - it acknowledges th= e connection but doesn't communicate to the 'Net. I check to see what it has done and XP has failed to pick up a lease from the LAN DHCP server. I plug it straight into the cable modem switch hoping it will pick up a lease from Shaw Cable - our local broadband provider - no joy. I try to figure out what is happening when I note XP is trying to create a little wireless LAN bridging from the cable connection to the big bad wireless world - somebody is already trying to connect to the Dell - fortunately there is no connection to the 'Net! XP has managed to get a lease from Shaw but doesn't have a gateway or DNS service so is useless. I am running out of 'friend' time so start shutting XP down and disconnect it from the cable modem 5 port switch. The client complains that he can't connect to Microsoft upgrade and I explain QUICKLY that XP has guessed wrong the kind of connection he wanted and I don't have time to play with it (I really don't). I then show him how Linux connects to my wired 10/100 LAN: dhcpcd <enter> I then him how I connect directly to Shaw Cable through the switch; dhcpcd -k <enter> (kills the existing connection) dhcpcd <enter> (new lease in seconds) I demonstrate using an IBM X40 - it takes less than a second to get a lease on my LAN and less than 20 seconds to get a lease from Shaw Cable. I then demonstrate picking up a wireless lease from my b/g access point - takes about 30 seconds. I hand the Dell back directing him to a local Windows shop where I am sure they will get him online - for $60 a hour. Had he already been infected while he was trying to connect to the 'Net at home? I have no idea. Do I care? No! I had offered to install Slackware Current on his DELL but he decided on the more expensive XP Pro and 2003 Office - he is on his own and not very happy right now. I provide a service to my IT clients but the service is based on compliance with my recommendations - I am not a whore like the Microsoft houses who have recently *DISCOVERED* Linux. I am truly spoiled by Linux's power and ease of use - no viruses, no crippled Media player (9 can't even play ordinary AVIs out of the box), no Digital Rights Management (now to be upgraded to jAnus), no mangled networking and no sole dependence on a convicted predatory monopolist who is above the law. Best regards, Brian Linux Mystic open sorcerer
Path: controlnews3.google.com!news1.google.com!news.glorb.com! news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750! not-for-mail X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.85.88.130 From: Brian <br...@stanley-park.com> Subject: Re: I am so spoiled... Newsgroups: microsoft.public.msn.discussion Reply-To: br...@stanley-park.com References: <HcRlc.347847$Pk3.161368@pd7tw1no> <Oc6jmfhMEHA.1556@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl> Lines: 111 User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: <B3%lc.374680$oR5.117766@pd7tw3no> Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 05:36:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: ab...@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1083735393 24.71.223.147 (Tue, 04 May 2004 23:36:33 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 23:36:33 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Xref: controlnews3.google.com microsoft.public.msn.discussion:154 Hanson wrote: > Spoiled has more than one meaning Only a fool would misunderstand my meaning. > --most of us who come here are familiar with your "sour grapes" > attitude toward all that it Microsoft... Sour grapes? Are you kidding? The only thing making me *sour* is how all the traditional Microsoft houses are now offering Linux *badly* to their demanding customers! > Ditto what Brian Kvalheim said -- I've had no problems with Windows XP... Well, that's two of you. I guess that makes it official! (This way to The Egress!) > None of my clients who keep up with security updates have had virus/worm > problems. How much do they spend on Microsoft licenses? How much do they spend on license compliance? How much do they spend keeping their Microsoft services up to date? How much do they spend on anti-virus software and firewalls? > I removed the Sasser worm for a client today -- she neglected to > install last months patch -- but with the McAfee Stinger tool, it was > routine. My clients haven't been effected by Sasser or Blaster or any 'Net born compromise - except as a consequence of Microsoft vectored traffic and downtime. > Linux is also vulnerable to infections Care to cite? > if not kept up to date -- it just doesn't get the level of interest > from virus coders as the much more prolific Windows... Really? Is that what you think? Could it be that Microsoft just sells insecure code? I mean, could all those virus writers just be seizing an obvious opportunity? There are dozens of different *major* Linux distributions that all have different ways of creating an installation. Microsoft Windows is a single point of failure versus the diversity of the Unix/Linux community - another pervasive argument against a single source IT monoculture. Look at it this way; if Microsoft sold secure code there would be nothing for the virus writers to compromise, would there? > After reading your Linux love letters for a while, I usually ask about > Linux experiences from. A few IT professionals I know run a Linux > machine just to keep up, but none use Linux as a primary system. Most of > my friends who've tried Linux abandoned the attempt or have had to hire an > expert (like you claim to be) to get a successful installation. Then your friends are obviously NOT IT professionals, are they? Microsoft is to Information Technology what paint-by-numbers is to art. > Most of them have gone back to Windows XP after reaffirming that > "there's no such thing as a free lunch"... There *is* no such thing as a free lunch - Linux isn't developed in a vacuum! It is the product of hundreds of companies and thousands of dedicated software designers from around the world. Just because you have a big sticker price doesn't mean a superior product. This is obvious to anybody running a serious network server farm. > You make a good living by pushing Linux, Pushing Linux? I have a hard time keeping up with demand! I used to be a Microsoft hump (up to '95) but slowly moved to Unix/Linux as it became apparent who was producing the best bang for the buck! I stopped servicing Windows in 2002 and became totally Microsoft FREE last year. There are many reasons to NOT use Microsoft products and there are even more reasons to support open source technology - moral, ethical reasons. > and there's no doubt you're very convinced it's a good OS. But you > also push a lot of biased/slanted/twisted BS about Microsoft products. I always like to support my 'biased/slanted/twisted BS about Microsoft products' with real life experiences and/or credible citations. > At least you're predictable.... Perhaps the word you are looking for is 'consistant'! A good attribute for an IT professional, wouldn't you agree? Not like Bill Gates who is caught in public lie after public lie! Microsoft is a corrupt predatory monopoly that is running scared because their worst nightmare is coming true! A superior technology at a superior price developed by a distributed development model that can't be bought, corrupted or run out of town! 8^) Best regards, Brian Linux Mystic open sorcerer
Path: controlnews3.google.com!news1.google.com!news.glorb.com! cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net! bigfeed.bellsouth.net!bignumb.bellsouth.net!news.bellsouth.net! bignews6.bellsouth.net.POSTED!10fd4068!not-for-mail From: Justin Haygood <jhayg...@bellsouth.net> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: microsoft.public.msn.discussion Subject: Re: I am so spoiled... References: <HcRlc.347847$Pk3.161368@pd7tw1no> <Oc6jmfhMEHA.1556@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl> <B3%lc.374680$oR5.117766@pd7tw3no> In-Reply-To: <B3%lc.374680$oR5.117766@pd7tw3no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Message-ID: <HIcnc.87241$7a5.67794@bignews6.bellsouth.net> X-Complaints-To: ab...@bellsouth.net X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling X-Trace: ofjmidbaofeaohdodbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcbokhhfogfjnnonglk ahmflobgbkncgldanjfnmcfmogkakkeocpcfopplipinamdnihpaioafcakhcemfimlmglne ekkomnjbdllgpngigfcfmcgoc NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:56:55 EDT Organization: BellSouth Internet Group Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:59:49 -0400 Xref: controlnews3.google.com microsoft.public.msn.discussion:230 > > > How much do they spend on Microsoft licenses? How much do they spend on > license compliance? How much do they spend keeping their Microsoft services > up to date? How much do they spend on anti-virus software and firewalls? > > Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition License: $99.95 upgrade from Windows Millenium Edition (my comp came with Windows ME....) Spending on Licence Complaince: None, I don't distrubute the operating system. Keeping Microsoft Services Up To Date: None, All of my Microsoft software is well withing the EOL (Office XP, Windows XP, MSN 9), thus I don't pay a dime out, as the updates are free (Office XP SP3 was just released a couple of weeks ago). AV Software and Firewall: None, including *free* of charge with my MSN 9 subscription. McAfee VirusScan Online and McAfee Firewall Plus (alongside the Windows Firewall located in SP2 RC1 ;) ).
Path: controlnews3.google.com!news1.google.com!news.glorb.com! news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750! not-for-mail X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.85.88.130 From: Brian <br...@stanley-park.com> Subject: Re: I am so spoiled... Newsgroups: microsoft.public.msn.discussion Reply-To: br...@stanley-park.com References: <HcRlc.347847$Pk3.161368@pd7tw1no> <Oc6jmfhMEHA.1556@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl> <B3%lc.374680$oR5.117766@pd7tw3no> <HIcnc.87241$7a5.67794@bignews6.bellsouth.net> Lines: 42 User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: <p%jnc.423279$oR5.112064@pd7tw3no> Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 06:14:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: ab...@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1084083285 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 09 May 2004 00:14:45 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 00:14:45 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Xref: controlnews3.google.com microsoft.public.msn.discussion:240 Justin Haygood wrote: >> How much do they spend on Microsoft licenses? How much do they spend on >> license compliance? How much do they spend keeping their Microsoft >> services up to date? How much do they spend on anti-virus software and >> firewalls? > Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition License: $99.95 upgrade from Windows > Millenium Edition (my comp came with Windows ME....) Cost of Opera 7.23 - updated last month... $30.00 Cost of Slackware Current - updated yesterday. $0.00 Cost of OpenOffice 1.1.1 - updated last month... $0.00 Cost of K3B CD/DVD burner software... $0.00 Cost of MPlayer Video/Audio/Streaming player $0.00 Cost of MEncoder Video/Audio/Streaming ripper... $0.00 Cost of XMMS mp3/ogg/wav/CD player... $0.00 Cost of Lame CD ripper... $0.00 Cost of comprehensive firewall/gateway utilities $0.00 Cost of GIMP photoshop like graphic editor... $0.00 Cost of KMail/KNews/KICQ/KFax/Kivio/KDETV... $0.00 Cost of enjoying a rock solid innovative operating system & suite of quality applications without being indentured to Microsoft... *PRICELESS* There is so much more but they are server applications, developer applications & utilities, professional audio/video editing and countless power user utilities, programming & scripting languages and the most powerful database and active/passive webserver applications. It is totally OK to be a Microsoft drone but I wouldn't boast about it if I were you - have you no pride? 8^) Best regards, Brian Linux Mystic open sorcerer
Reply-To: "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" <sandi_h...@mvps.org> From: "Sandi - Microsoft MVP" <sandi_h...@mvps.org> References: <HcRlc.347847$Pk3.161368@pd7tw1no> <Oc6jmfhMEHA.1556@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl> <B3%lc.374680$oR5.117766@pd7tw3no> <HIcnc.87241$7a5.67794@bignews6.bellsouth.net> <p%jnc.423279$oR5.112064@pd7tw3no> Subject: Re: I am so spoiled... Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 22:16:43 +0800 Lines: 44 Organization: Microsoft MVP since 1999 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2120 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2120 Message-ID: <e45Vz7cNEHA.1160@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl> Newsgroups: microsoft.public.msn.discussion NNTP-Posting-Host: cpe-144-136-254-48.wa.bigpond.net.au 144.136.254.48 Path: controlnews3.google.com!news1.google.com!newshub.sdsu.edu! news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!msrnewsc1! TK2MSFTNGP08.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl Xref: controlnews3.google.com microsoft.public.msn.discussion:242 Brian wrote: > Cost of Opera 7.23 - updated last month... $30.00 > Cost of Slackware Current - updated yesterday. $0.00 > Cost of OpenOffice 1.1.1 - updated last month... $0.00 > Cost of K3B CD/DVD burner software... $0.00 > Cost of MPlayer Video/Audio/Streaming player $0.00 > Cost of MEncoder Video/Audio/Streaming ripper... $0.00 > Cost of XMMS mp3/ogg/wav/CD player... $0.00 > Cost of Lame CD ripper... $0.00 > Cost of comprehensive firewall/gateway utilities $0.00 > Cost of GIMP photoshop like graphic editor... $0.00 > Cost of KMail/KNews/KICQ/KFax/Kivio/KDETV... $0.00 Let's compare like with like. I sincerely doubt that more than a minority of your clients are able to maintain/administer their Linux systems without your assistance. Does Linux have the equivalent of Windows Update? How are security problems addressed? Do your clients have to get you on site to install the latest patch/fix? Do you charge them to come out and install patches? "Upgrading to Red Hat Enterprise from 7.2 would cost ~$350k just for the systems we already have deployed. Due to the change in Red Hat's release policy, we either have to move to Enterprise, or change distributions." http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/03/08/15/233245.shtml?tid= 106&tid=110&tid=185&tid=187 http://www.xoops.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14618&forum=3&post_id=60095 "With the current structure for Redhat and MySQL it is not a cost effective solution anymore. It cost more money now to use Redhat vs Win2003 server. Also, MySQL isn't really free if you're not using it for commercial use. Sure you can pay for it if you want to but why when there are other solutions that are just as good maybe better and it is free." Its only a matter of time before other Linux distributions follow suit. -- Hyperlinks are used to ensure advice remains current Do NOT send me an email. I will NOT see it (thank the spammers and viruses) _______________________________________ Sandi - Microsoft MVP since 1999 (IE/OE) http://inetexplorer.mvps.org/
Path: controlnews3.google.com!news1.google.com!news.glorb.com! news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750! not-for-mail X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.85.88.130 From: Brian <br...@stanley-park.com> Subject: Re: I am so spoiled... Newsgroups: microsoft.public.msn.discussion Reply-To: br...@stanley-park.com References: <HcRlc.347847$Pk3.161368@pd7tw1no> <Oc6jmfhMEHA.1556@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl> <B3%lc.374680$oR5.117766@pd7tw3no> <HIcnc.87241$7a5.67794@bignews6.bellsouth.net> <p%jnc.423279$oR5.112064@pd7tw3no> <e45Vz7cNEHA.1160@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl> Lines: 133 User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: <fpunc.429199$Ig.374424@pd7tw2no> Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 18:04:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: ab...@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1084125899 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 09 May 2004 12:04:59 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 12:04:59 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Xref: controlnews3.google.com microsoft.public.msn.discussion:253 Sandi - Microsoft MVP wrote: > Brian wrote: >> Cost of Opera 7.23 - updated last month... $30.00 >> Cost of Slackware Current - updated yesterday. $0.00 >> Cost of OpenOffice 1.1.1 - updated last month... $0.00 >> Cost of K3B CD/DVD burner software... $0.00 >> Cost of MPlayer Video/Audio/Streaming player $0.00 >> Cost of MEncoder Video/Audio/Streaming ripper... $0.00 >> Cost of XMMS mp3/ogg/wav/CD player... $0.00 >> Cost of Lame CD ripper... $0.00 >> Cost of comprehensive firewall/gateway utilities $0.00 >> Cost of GIMP photoshop like graphic editor... $0.00 >> Cost of KMail/KNews/KICQ/KFax/Kivio/KDETV... $0.00 > Let's compare like with like. Hi Sandi. > I sincerely doubt that more than a minority of your clients are able to > maintain/administer their Linux systems without your assistance. Just like my old Windows clients - yes they do require assistance. > Does Linux have the equivalent of Windows Update? Erm... Don't need it. > How are security problems addressed? Very few... perhaps 3 this year. I ssh in over the 'Net and perform required upgrades: updatepkg security-fix-xxx.tgz <enter> Not like Microsoft update which can take hours right out of the box just for SP1. > Do your clients have to get you on site to install the latest patch/fix? No. Most updating is automated - Slackware has an application that checks a list of mirrors every night for updates until it gets a connection. In the event of a serious security issue I will perform the update from my office or shop via ssh. > Do you charge them to come out and install patches? Don't have to do any 'away missions' unless there is a hardware failure. As for charges - it is all part of the service contract. All my clients have a custom made bootable CD that will allow me to do a complete rebuild or re-install remotely without having to visit their site. I have clients I have never seen in Ottawa and Toronto - I just tele-commute in when required. > "Upgrading to Red Hat Enterprise from 7.2 would cost ~$350k just for the > systems we already have deployed. Due to the change in Red Hat's release > policy, we either have to move to Enterprise, or change distributions." I recommend Slackware - new release any day now. You do know that RedHat charges that amount because that is what enterprise customers expect, right? There are lots of truly sharp Linux houses that can put together everything RedHat offers plus more for much less money. All you need is a sharp Linux guy and he can put everything together, including MySQL, Apache, Bind, Linux, PHP, Sendmail and whatever else you like for the cost of his hours plus a good service contract. There will always be carriage trade services but anybody that isn't smart enough to shop around deserves to pay premium prices. > Its only a matter of time before other Linux distributions follow suit. Sorry darling but that is nothing but pure unadulterated FUD. Microsoft is bleeding clients and prestige because they are feeling real competition that they can't buy or wreck and it is killing them. Not only is the Linux operating system substantially cheaper to install, harden, support and maintain BUT there is also a whole world of superior quality products like Apache, PHP, Bind, Sendmail and MySQL that are also free. None of these products are shackled with rights sucking EULAs or DRM technology. None require licensing or activation. All are open source so you can review the code and even make changes without having to contact the designers. You can even build your own customized version and distribute it yourself, if you want. The thing most Microsoft users don't understand is they don't understand "open source"! The Linux kernel project is just one of 10,000s of open source projects. If the Linux kernel project were to vaporize tomorrow, I would feel terrible but I would switch over to FreeBSD the next day. All the major applications that compile and run on Linux will also compile and run on FreeBSD. For those specialized apps that don't run natively can still be run using a suite of Linux compatibility libraries for FreeBSD. All open, all free and superior quality to anything Microsoft has for sale under usurious terms. The sad thing is Bill and Steve know this to be true and that is why they are using Microsoft's vast wealth and influence to FUD and destroy Linux/Unix - they should just concentrate on building an OS that isn't crap. Right as we speak, Apache holds over 66% of the web server market, Microsoft IIS holds less than 23% (and declining). This is despite Microsoft coming out with their low-cost Apache killer version Server 2003 OS last year. One last thought - the main reason for not buying and supporting Microsoft is one of ethics and morality. I will not support a corporate predator whose interests are so diametrically opposed to mine and my children's - it is really that simple. Microsoft is a bad company run by bad people. Microsoft is a company of thieves, liars and cheats. Why do *you* support Microsoft? Best regards Sandi, Brian Linux Mystic open sorcerer